Continuing thread from im probably a cis male with a freak kink but fuck it imma be a woman
I see. In some ways I get it
Like I think if someone told me they want to chop off all their limbs because that makes them happy, I'd try to convince them not to. That's one end of the spectrum.
On the other hand, however, if someone wants to get tattoos, piercings or smoke regularly. While I dislike all of those one could argue it's "harming their bodies", I think that's their decision.
I'm curious where you'd trace the line for personal freedom vs you are hurting yourself and why.
Also, I agree there's some potential for regret and I think it's good to talk about that. But my guess is we have different opinions on how commonly this happens.
Would it changed your mind if only a small minority of trans people regreted it? (Don't have it, haven't looked it up. Just curious if it would) I think data showing it's a majority that regret it would definitely sway me closer to your position on that
Like I think if someone told me they want to chop off all their limbs because that makes them happy, I'd try to convince them not to. That's one end of the spectrum.
On the other hand, however, if someone wants to get tattoos, piercings or smoke regularly. While I dislike all of those one could argue it's "harming their bodies", I think that's their decision.
I'm curious where you'd trace the line for personal freedom vs you are hurting yourself and why.
Also, I agree there's some potential for regret and I think it's good to talk about that. But my guess is we have different opinions on how commonly this happens.
Would it changed your mind if only a small minority of trans people regreted it? (Don't have it, haven't looked it up. Just curious if it would) I think data showing it's a majority that regret it would definitely sway me closer to your position on that
3mo|
Anonymous
||Thanks for trying to see my point. Will do the same if I can.
So basically I think we are closer at the arguments than expected.
Common with me is that you just care and see the evident harmful aspect. Valid. My ground line from there is always to have a good health care system, sane society and proper laws based on expert knowledge as the given. If you can assume for a moment this could be the case, like I say it is to some extent the reality at least in Germany,
Of course, this does not mean there is something bullet proof and it would be another discussion if you disagree that this exists at all.
I want to tell you about the more often than not variant of how transition works:
1. If you are a youngster, deviation in behaviour usually starts to show unfiltered, early and easy to see. This could be any cause, not even with any further meaning. Mental health, social problems or plain physiological issues could do all bad things you may envision. That's all kind of illnesses I go for, not pernality like I count trans identity to. Of course school, parents - or state if they don't act - will care and do the necessary visits at the doctor and psychologist if severe aspects show. Not a scenario for trans! At least here no one with proper education to take care of kids would take it as illness to cure, but this is how real illness will later not become "he/she is different" and
2. Almost at the year of age, usually bigger social issues pop up for trans. Even if they know that exists, how fast are you strong enough to state you are not like other? It's better to not be different, if you want friends.
3. Want to change the situation? At least a year of psychological treatment is necessary. Yes, they realy want to make sure you are not just faking it or have a borderline. This could happen also later in time. Guess that filters out a lot of mental illness.
4. Fight the public health system to deem the transition necessary.
So basically I think we are closer at the arguments than expected.
Common with me is that you just care and see the evident harmful aspect. Valid. My ground line from there is always to have a good health care system, sane society and proper laws based on expert knowledge as the given. If you can assume for a moment this could be the case, like I say it is to some extent the reality at least in Germany,
Of course, this does not mean there is something bullet proof and it would be another discussion if you disagree that this exists at all.
I want to tell you about the more often than not variant of how transition works:
1. If you are a youngster, deviation in behaviour usually starts to show unfiltered, early and easy to see. This could be any cause, not even with any further meaning. Mental health, social problems or plain physiological issues could do all bad things you may envision. That's all kind of illnesses I go for, not pernality like I count trans identity to. Of course school, parents - or state if they don't act - will care and do the necessary visits at the doctor and psychologist if severe aspects show. Not a scenario for trans! At least here no one with proper education to take care of kids would take it as illness to cure, but this is how real illness will later not become "he/she is different" and
2. Almost at the year of age, usually bigger social issues pop up for trans. Even if they know that exists, how fast are you strong enough to state you are not like other? It's better to not be different, if you want friends.
3. Want to change the situation? At least a year of psychological treatment is necessary. Yes, they realy want to make sure you are not just faking it or have a borderline. This could happen also later in time. Guess that filters out a lot of mental illness.
4. Fight the public health system to deem the transition necessary.
3mo|
Anonymous
||5. You start with medics. Most effects could be reverted, but the longer the more would be the turn back a problem. But you already life with the other gender quite same time. Other people go away or accept, so basically this is giving you a very good idea how it will be in your new self.
6. Now, if it is necessary for you, the operation can follow. Not even close to every trans does that. This is because there is a chance to loose sex drive. If you do not hate your body at this part, it is not the most pressing issue. Hating yourself, or parts of it got a lot of medical attention to cure. Psychological treatment as well as jusliving already like you feel is right takes away all the pain and low self esteem.
Ok, that's this part. But I see your point at last: where do draw the line. Well, I don't. And you don't. But medical doctors do. Not one or two, but the medical knowledge at that time combined says it is ok and will help. Tattoo is also ok, they say. Kidney removal not so much, just for fun..
6. Now, if it is necessary for you, the operation can follow. Not even close to every trans does that. This is because there is a chance to loose sex drive. If you do not hate your body at this part, it is not the most pressing issue. Hating yourself, or parts of it got a lot of medical attention to cure. Psychological treatment as well as jusliving already like you feel is right takes away all the pain and low self esteem.
Ok, that's this part. But I see your point at last: where do draw the line. Well, I don't. And you don't. But medical doctors do. Not one or two, but the medical knowledge at that time combined says it is ok and will help. Tattoo is also ok, they say. Kidney removal not so much, just for fun..
3mo|
Anonymous
||Thanks for taking the time to reply! I think we're probably very close in our positions as well.Just let me make sure I understand correctly:
The steps you're describing are what is commonly done in Germany and you're providing them to show me a good example of how medics and progessional make sure that the person they are treating is really trans and needs surgery. (There could be other solutions that don't involve surgery)
If all of those steps are followed correctly, the number of people that actually transition is very small. But if after all of that doctors said that surgery is the best option, you wouldn't oppose to it.
Did I get it correctly?
Because that process sounds good to me. I think going through therapy and discarding other possible explanations first should be the norm in all countries.
> Psychological treatment as well as jusliving already like you feel is right takes away all the pain and low self esteem.
This is very interesting. I personally agree, or at least my instinct tells me this should be true.
I find that in any other cases if a person is not comfortable with something that they can't change, psychology's approach is to help them accept it and move on. To help them be in control of the negative feeling. (For example, we don't help people with anorexia get thinner, we make the anorexia go away)
However a lot of trans people seem to all talk about an experience that goes beyond self-esteem issues. Some intrinsic negative feeling that won't go away despite therapy or how people perceive them. Some "gender experience" that is a real, but if you aren't trans you can't really know it.
To be honest I find this very hard to believe, but I try to be open minded and always leave a small posibility that "what if this is true and I'm just brushing it off? That would suck". Some things inside your mind are impossible to communicate to other people, that doesn't mean they aren't real. I try to remember that.
The steps you're describing are what is commonly done in Germany and you're providing them to show me a good example of how medics and progessional make sure that the person they are treating is really trans and needs surgery. (There could be other solutions that don't involve surgery)
If all of those steps are followed correctly, the number of people that actually transition is very small. But if after all of that doctors said that surgery is the best option, you wouldn't oppose to it.
Did I get it correctly?
Because that process sounds good to me. I think going through therapy and discarding other possible explanations first should be the norm in all countries.
> Psychological treatment as well as jusliving already like you feel is right takes away all the pain and low self esteem.
This is very interesting. I personally agree, or at least my instinct tells me this should be true.
I find that in any other cases if a person is not comfortable with something that they can't change, psychology's approach is to help them accept it and move on. To help them be in control of the negative feeling. (For example, we don't help people with anorexia get thinner, we make the anorexia go away)
However a lot of trans people seem to all talk about an experience that goes beyond self-esteem issues. Some intrinsic negative feeling that won't go away despite therapy or how people perceive them. Some "gender experience" that is a real, but if you aren't trans you can't really know it.
To be honest I find this very hard to believe, but I try to be open minded and always leave a small posibility that "what if this is true and I'm just brushing it off? That would suck". Some things inside your mind are impossible to communicate to other people, that doesn't mean they aren't real. I try to remember that.
3mo|
Anonymous
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